(KL=Katelyn Lusher LR=Leila Rodriguez)

KL: My name is Katelyn Lusher. I am a Graduate Assistant at the Taft Research Center and host the Research Spotlight series for Humanities Unbound. The Research Spotlight series focuses on the current Taft Center Fellows. In this episode, I’m talking to Dr. Leila Rodriguez Associate Professor of Anthropology at the University of Cincinnati. Dr. Rodriguez’s research focuses on unaccompanied and undocumented minors in Cincinnati. Dr. Rodriguez, thank you for joining me today. So you are one of the Taft Center Fellows this year for 2019-2020 and so today I’d like to hear more about your research and how your project is engaging with conversations that are going on today about immigration and child migrants. So just to start, tell me a little bit about your current research that you’re doing at the Taft Center this year.

LR: Yes, so I am working on a book manuscript that stems from my latest research project on the integration of underage undocumented unaccompanied migrants and I’m writing it from my Public Anthropology perspective meaning that it is geared toward a broader policymaking audience and I’m so from my theoretical current that seeks to highlight the current conditions under which positive outcomes can emerge from negative social context.

KL: Okay, great. Thank you. So why did you want to research this population in particular? So what drew you to them?

LR: Well, this began a couple years ago and I had wrapped up a previous project when the College of Arts and Sciences began its Cincinnati Project initiative and that seeks to connect scholars to the broader Cincinnati community so at the time, a request came in from a local migrant serving organization the Su Casa Hispanic Center for research into this population and I was already interested in them so it all just kind of came together, but what drew me to them was the fact that I think they’re among the most vulnerable of all migrants and with a few exceptions, we tend to ignore sort of their needs and their agency.

KL: Yes, absolutely. So you’ve mentioned in the past when meeting in other interviews that refugees often migrate to escape dangerous situations in their home countries due to climate change and political violence just to name a couple reasons, but then when they migrate to the US, they face hostility and what you call the politics of fear, so they face politics of fear because of rising anti-immigrant sentiments in nationalism. So how do these conditions affect children who migrate and how do unaccompanied minors fend for themselves when faced with these difficult circumstances?

LR: Well, I’ll figure out how exactly they do it as I analyze my data and write the book manuscript, but in essence, youth are no different than adults in that they have some agency in what they do, but they’re also simultaneously constrained by structural factors. So the idea behind the book is not to portray the hardships they face in Cincinnati or that they face back home more or the way here, but precisely to highlight how they survive, you know, how they adapt, change, contribute, overcome, and yes even thrive right. And this happens with the right combination of support and getting out of their way right so it doesn’t just depend on them, it also depends on how the rest of us here talk about them, behave towards them, and write rules about them.

KL: Right, so what are some ways that you’ve noticed that people have treated child migrants before?

LR: Well, before treating them, there’s sort of mental structures right. Like how you think about them and that’s reflected in how you talk about them and how you act towards them right, but I think in general, not just in Cincinnati, but in the US and really the world at large, there’s sort of two extremes right. There are the people who choose to view them as invaders, as criminals, as job stealers, you know, etc. etc. And then I think on the other end of the spectrum, there are well-meaning academics, nonprofit workers who view them as people that need protection and people who are victims. And I have a problem with both of those extremes. They’re just people and I’m hoping to show that this is how they do it right.

KL: In a way, it’s sort of about humanizing this population we talk about so much.

LR: Yes, exactly. Right. I mean they’re not criminals and they can be vulnerable, but they can also figure things out on their own, right, and so I think we have to be very careful about how we treat them.

KL: Right, it’s so infrequent for children in any population to really be given any kind of agency so yeah, I definitely think, I can definitely see that. So related to that, how the experiences of children migrants compare to the impacts on adult migrants?

LR: Well, as I said, you know, in some ways they are very similar. Children and adults are just people. I think adults tend to have more agency so migrant children are not just constrained by what the rest of us do here in the community, but they’re also constrained by their own families right in ways that perhaps adults are not.

KL: So quite frequently when immigration policies are discussed in politics or on the news, migrant populations from all over the world are lumped into the same category simply as migrants. So why is it important to specifically focus on the daily lives of unaccompanied children who enter via the US-Mexico border specifically including Central and South American migrants?

LR: Well, I like the term displaced people or peoples because it doesn’t attempt to classify them a priori. I mean, I think it’s important to focus on displaced peoples in general all over the world because this is not something new and this is not something abnormal right. The movement of humans is extremely common and, you know, this is what humans do, we move and we adapt, but in current world conditions, we’re only going to see more of this. Right and so I think we need to just normalize it, that this is part and parcel of being a human being. But whether there is something that is conceptually distinctive about unaccompanied minors is a question that I myself had when I’m working on this project and with time, I have learned yes right so, first, being undocumented, but also underage, they’re subject to particular policies that don’t necessarily apply to the other migrants or adult migrants. Second, the familial relationships tend to differ from those of other child migrants, so, many of them were left behind by their parents at very young ages, sometimes as early as the toddler years, and now they come to the US to reunite with their parents as teenagers. And so the relationship is different and the emotional ties to the parents can be very different from those of kids who grew up and simultaneously migrated with the parents. And I guess, third, sadly, in the current political climate, because of the emotional reaction that people tend to have towards children, they’re also being used as political pawns.

KL: Yeah, could you talk a little bit more about these policies you mentioned earlier that tend to affect children more often?

LR: Yes, so there’s a lot, but I suppose the main one is that if they are detained at the border by border patrol, they’re not automatically deported. They are moved into the custody of the Office for Refugee Resettlement. And they are kept in their centers often times for months if and until a parent or some other suitable caretaker is found in the US right. And when this happens, it’s a long process, I’m oversimplifying it, but they’re usually released into the custody of these people. Sometimes it’s a parent, sometimes it’s a more distant relative and if they literally have no adult in the US who can take care of them, often they go into foster care kinds of systems. So that’s really the main difference, but I have to emphasize that again, in the current political climate, everything is in flux and everything is a little bit chaotic and so, sometimes it’s hard to keep up with what exactly is happening to these kids right now.

KL: Right, yeah. Because we see so much in the news about for lack of a better word, concentration camps for kids on the border. And it’s just… I’m not sure if I can really articulate it. But yeah, that was partly why I wanted to ask because it’s something that we see here so often in the news that. Thank you. So you describe your current work as a Public Anthropology project since it engages with conversations beyond your discipline because of the broader public discussion around immigration, you have said before that you have been asked to write affidavits about the issue to lawyers, which is an example of how social scientists become more like activists and advocates for the people they work with. So, with that in mind, what do you see as your public role then in your research on unaccompanied minors in Cincinnati and how will your research benefit Cincinnati in particular?

LR: Well, I hope that the book will provide a blueprint for what works best in ensuring that the integration of young migrants is as positive as possible for them. Their families and also the community is that into which they integrate and so with some community partners, I am planning to speak with local policymakers and provide them with data and some suggestions on how we can all work together to make sure that these kids and their families have the tools to be full members of our Cincinnati community and not just another population in the city that will remain stagnated and in poverty generation after generation. There are many ways I think to do and define activism and to do activism and because of my interests and my personality, I believe that my activism is best rooted in providing quality scholarship to those who make decisions and advocate on behalf of others so that good choices are made.

KL: Yes, excellent. Thank you. So speaking of community partners, a few years ago, you partnered with Su Casa Hispanic Center and I know you mentioned them earlier as part of your Fellowship with the Cincinnati Project, so how does Su Casa and your involvement in the community currently influence your research with the project you’re working on now?

LR: Well, this was the first time that I conducted a project in alliance with non-academics. And working with Su Casa has been a wonderful experience. You know, some aspects were surprising, nonprofits don’t work the way academia works, having to undergo their own ethical review process, or the fact that my colleagues there often need permission from their higher ups before they can add their name to a public statement that stems from the project, that was different, but most of all, I have had the chance to work closely with a group of community people, you know, they’re educators, they’re activists, they’re healthcare personnel, and many others who are, to be honest, some of the hardest working, most caring, and committed people that I have met in this city. And so, we continue to think of further initiatives on which we collaborate and I’m happy to be able to call some of them my friends.

KL: That’s wonderful. Yeah, working with a community partner can really provide perspective that academics just don’t have access to. Because sometimes the community partners, they’re the ones doing the on the ground work. And then, you know, as academics, sometimes, we’re writing about it, but we’re maybe not as firmly entrenched.

LR: Yeah, absolutely. You know, they have been sources of data for me, but they’re also the doers right, and so, any idea that I have, they’ll think of ways of implementing it and it’s just fantastic.

KL: Absolutely. I absolutely agree. Earlier talking about how your activism can help with policy, so how else do you plan to share your knowledge beyond academia for example with Su Casa and other organizations in the city of Cincinnati and or policy/advocacy networks?

LR: Well, I have a full plan of attack. I am working on, you  know, your standard journal articles and conferences presentations for my academic communities. I’m working on this book manuscript for policymaking and nonprofit kinds of audiences. And also this local sort of policy tour that I mentioned. You know, I’m still working with the data, but honestly, once I’m finished, I would love to talk to anyone who is willing to listen.

KL: Wonderful. So last couple of questions, so this podcast will hopefully be reaching more than just academics hopefully and so how can people listening to this interview academics and non-academics help unaccompanied undocumented minors like the ones in your study, so for example, how can they get involved in immigrant advocacy work?

LR: Well, there are multiple local nonprofits that work with migrants and refugees and they need financial donations, donations in kind, and volunteers. Some that come to mind include Su Casa and Catholic charities more broadly, the Santa Maria Community Center, Heartfelt Tidbits, The Immigrant and Refugee Law Center, Refugee Connect, and honestly, a lot others. But most importantly, I think it’s important, you need to get educated, you need to educate your friends and your family about them. Immigrants and refugees are very important part of our community and they deserve to be fully embraced as such.

KL: Absolutely. Just a clarifying question, those organizations you mentioned, are those mostly local to Cincinnati? Or are some of those nationwide?

LR: These are all local.

KL: Okay, okay. Last question. How has the Taft Research Center benefitted your research so far?

LR: Oh, immensely. There is no greater gift to a scholar than to have the time and mental space to just think and write. And I see the role of academics in society primarily to be critical thinkers right like we are the ones who question everything to the point that it gets annoying. We’re the ones that suggest alternative interpretations for things. We’re the ones who collect the data that’s necessary to better understand something, and yet, in reality, in our jobs with all the different teaching and service obligations, sometimes we do everything, but think. But do research. And so I feel like just in the short time that I’ve been a Taft fellow, I have already accomplished so much perhaps more than the last entire year combined. And you know, more importantly, I have begun conversing with the other Fellows about their projects and I just think they’re all brilliant, and talking to them is so intellectually stimulating that sometimes I cannot believe that I get to do this for a living, at least for a year.

KL: Yes, yes. It’s funny that you said that you’re talking with the other Fellows has been really helpful because when I was interviewing with Derrick, he said the same thing and I could see the overlap and it’s so cool. So yeah, it’s awesome how in the Taft Center, you’re almost making your own little micro community of other academics. Alright. Well, thank you so much for joining me for this interview. Before we finish, is there anything else that I didn’t ask you about your project that you would like to comment on?

LR: Just the importance I think of supporting scholarship of supporting public universities, of supporting the work that academics do, and of not being scared to talk to us. I mean I think that these partnerships between the community and academics leads to fantastic outcomes, so I’m happy to see more of it happen.

KL: Alright, thank you so much.